While I also agree that Big Pharma is likely responsible for the outrageous prices for drugs and influence many choices that doctors make, I also think that Big Pharma greatly profits by “using” our non-socialized system. They “need” our non-socialized system to make the exorbitant profits that they do. And so they actually lobby to keep our system non-socialized so that they can continue to charge whatever they think the market will bear. They can’t charge just any fee in a socialized system and that is why so many other drugs are available “here” and not in Canada and the UK because they make profit here. I have read of clinical trials to “test” new drugs that were conducted in places like Canada, but once the drug is “approved,” it becomes available here in the U.S. first before Canada. Why? I bet it’s because of profits. And just because they are available here doesn’t make it good, just profitable.

Big Pharma has been known to “test” their drugs (like birth controls and vaccines, etc) and new gadgets (surgical procedures and implant devices) on third world country citizens, so that they can have products to sell us here in the U.S. The stories I’ve read is that many of those “test” subjects are not fully advised on the true nature of their participation and likely not compensated properly, either, especially when things go wrong from unforeseen side effects of the drug or procedure being tested. It’s been a while since I’ve read about those things, so would have to go back and search for links on that or references.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that when we have rampant greed that is common in human nature, fee for service can work against us. Big Pharma is an example of that and uses our non-socialized system to hike up their prices and make mega profits. While I understand that supply and demand also play a role here, the stakes are skewed when people are sick. People will pay and even refinance their homes and forfeit their life-savings if they are afraid to die or lose their loved ones. That’s not comparable to whether or not you want a flat screen TV. In those cases, if there is no intervention regarding the cap price for a drug and/or procedure, then only the wealthy will be able to afford it. There will always be poor people (who just can’t afford and have nothing to sell), and don’t we as fellow human beings have some sort of responsibility to help those less fortunate? I think that’s Biblical. I don’t think it’s evil for the government to a lot for “some” medical services for trauma cases. My qualm is not that our government offers free medical care, but rather the “type of care” that is given is limited and controlled, to the point of monopolizing and telling us “what constitutes medicine.” I think this is where socialized medicine can become dangerous especially when “psychology” starts to come into the picture. What is normal? How are you to treat your child if he becomes ill? Which drugs are okay to give? etc. etc. etc. These things I do not think the government should have the final say on. I don’t think government should be deciding what is the “right” treatments. The money part (raising taxes) is not my biggest concern, but rather the “control” over our decisions. I don’t want a social worker knocking on my door making sure my kids have the proper vaccines. You see what I mean? We are on that path already especially in cancer care when alternative medicines are looked down upon and even illegal. I think the money part is just another issue that detracts from the true danger of “fully” socialized medicine because as Moore points out, we already have socialized services that work rather well like our fire departments, libraries, etc. In the case of medicine since so much profit can be made, something that is supposed to give us more freedom (capitalism and choices) is used against us by allowing Big Pharma, and medical insurance companies, and doctors (I bet somehow those 3 work together, ha ha) to charge whatever they think the market will bear. It’s as if Big Pharma is screwing us from both ends–charging us up the whazoo AND “training or conditioning” us to look to them for all our health needs.

Anyway, just a few more of my cents tossed in the mix. . .

Marla

I think the bottom line to the cost of healthcare is big pharma. If you go through all the routes, it all goes back to them. When my folks had fee for service insurance, things were never like they are now. We simply paid our deductible and the insurance company paid the difference. No doctor write offs, etc. In some ways I think that’s why doctors raise their prices. So when they “write off” what the insurance company requires they will still have a decent payment for the appt. By far, when fee for service went away, so did patient directed, doctor helping medical care. Today, it seems all about the money. When pharmaceutical companies are handing doctors drugs everyday to give to their patients, there is no incentive to see/learn what that patient is doing outside the office that might affect their health. Instead, it’s “Here, take this pill. It’ll fix the symptoms.” Pull out the drugs, and I think a lot of the money issues go away.

Oh, too much to be said on this issue but it’s getting late. Maybe I’ll get on my soap box again later. Good post, Marla. The problem with Moore is he doesn’t give the whole story which I think is disengenuous (sp?) because there are a lot of liberals who will take what he says without doing any thinking for themselves. The stories I’ve read on both the MDS and leukemia forums about Canadian and European healthcare are not good. Yeah, they don’t have to pay much for their drugs, treatment, IF they can get it. People have had to wait months to get into a specialist only to find out their cancers are already very advanced. Or there is only one drug available because they don’t have what the US has on their treatment protocol. For me, socialized medicine is not the answer. The answer is educating people to take care of themselves with what they eat, etc. so they don’t run to a doctor everytime their nose runs. Then health insurance companies are truly only paying for those that are “sick” with disease and not stuff that could be prevented. Short of that, good old fee for service works for me.

patti

You know the “competition” thing can be a good thing and a bad thing. A bad thing for the reasons you mentioned, but a good thing in that it can motivate doctors to strive for excellence, not just sufficient. I guess that’s along the line of capitalistic ideology. On the other hand, it can go too far, too, where advancement comes before the patient’s best interest. So it my mind, the competition aspect can be a double-edged sword. But you are right, it doesn’t sound right to be “advertising” to come to our ER! Ha! Yikes!

Yeah the Medicare and the Medicaid thing is a form of socialized medicine, but it’s still not the same as the system in the UK or Canada, I “think.” The reason is that you have to be below a certain income status to qualify for those services here in the U.S. (At least that has been my understanding?) While in the UK and Canada, I think medical services are free for everyone no matter what their income. I know that my parents have pretty good medical coverage, but because of their income bracket, they still have to pay more than another person on a lower income bracket. At least that’s who it was explained to me when they were discussing how the cost of their drugs keeps going up each year.

Now “general hospitals” I think are free to anyone here. Course I’ve heard horror stories about those places! And I believe there are also government clinics here that are free, and again, horror stories there, too. Not the peaceful efficient service that Moore portrays in his movie Sicko. I discussed this with Brian and he reminded me that years ago when Aaron was a toddler he took Aaron to a government clinic for a TB test and had to wait 2 hours. Luckily, during his 2 hour wait he realized that getting a TB test was like getting a vaccine because you get innoculated with the bacteria. So he left and never had it done. My oldest sister is a nurse and in the earlier days of her nursing she was sent to a government hospital. There was one patient who was intubated and unconscious. She noticed something moving around in his mouth and found that his mouth was full of maggot! ACCCCCKKKKK! Yes, a fly must have gotten into his room and since he was unconscious and unable to shoo the fly away, laid maggots right in his mouth!!! They had to get another worker there to clean out his mouth, all the while the guy cleaning out his mouth swearing. . . You see these are the kinds of “socialized” medicine stories I’ve heard which Moore didn’t discuss on his video. But does that happen in non-socialized hospitals? I don’t know! Although I’ve never heard about that happening in a non-socialized hospital, I can definitely say that I’ve heard quite a few stories of misdiagnoses and improper drug administration to the point that patients have died. I had a friend who’s brother went in for a so-called routine stomach surgery from which he died on the operating table. My sister knew of a patient who had a shoulder injury from playing tennis who got the wrong meds and died. The list goes on, so how much better is socialized medicine to non-socialized medicine?

To have socialized medicine or non-socialized medicine is a hard call when you lump everything in one bunch. That is, I can see the benefit of socialized medicine for trauma injuries (car accidents, table saw accidents, skiing accidents, etc), but I’m not so sure it works so well for diseases because of all the money made with the drugs, the equipment, experimentations, etc. I am also curious to know what is done with the homeless in the UK and Canada and how they manage their health care. Moore showed a short clip of how we just dump them off on the street near the Union Rescue Mission. How is it handled in the socialized setting? I guess he leaves us to believe they are just taken in and cared for for however long it takes. I know when I was getting transfused, there was a patient there who they were telling me was hospitalized there already for a full year and was not getting better. They didn’t know what to do with her and she was not paying her medical bill. They couldn’t just toss her out. How many patients can you take like that and still have room for others? And this isn’t even discussing how this affects employers of these sick patients. Anyway, lots to consider. And this isn’t even touching upon natural alternative care.

Thanks again for your comment, Andrea.

Marla

We DO actually have a form of socialized medicine now, in the form of Medicaid, Medicare, and also the fact that hospitals basically have to “eat” the costs of the care of whoever comes to their door if they can’t get it reimbursed. This creates a lot of stress for hospitals.

Another problem is that the current system promotes competition between hospitals. That means, for example, that every hospital in a given area has to have a CT scanner, so they can compete. In Canada, one CT scanner for a certain population is deemed to be OK. IN our area, hospitals advertise–come to OUR emergency room! This doesn’t seem appropriate to me.

It looks to me like socialized medicine isn’t perfect, but is better than what we’ve got. We won’t get it–our system is too entrenched–but I still think it’s a good idea.

Andrea