I’m just headed out the door right now, but I didn’t see any post from you in the spam filter. I’ll also try to get back to you later on the corn silk.

Marla

patti

I’m glad to hear that your feel the same way about spending $ on things like pianos and such. Gosh, I’ve seen and heard enough about starving people to feel very uncomfortable sitting in a church thats spending thousands and thousands of dollars on dead objects while people are slowly dying of hunger every day. It’s not for me. I don’t find any encouragement in that.

I thought I was pretty clear that I was not “blanketing” that there should not be any preaching going on church. I specifically pointed out that preaching in church gathering was fine (if you recall my posts on the definitions of doctrine and prophesying, etc). I also thought I made it perfectly clear that my problem was that not that the churches today preach or evangelize, but that they seem to have forgotten the “other” things of which NT church was originally for. Another problem is that churches today are used almost exclusively for evangelizing.

I also thought I made it clear that we have not forsaken the assembling of ourselves. We have only stopped attending churches that meet in church “buildings” that require financial support for its upkeep.

As far as tithes, we do donate for certain causes, but we do not tithe. Tithing is an OT law of Moses wherein 10% of your produce was given to the Levites (the Priest clan). In the OT before we were redeemed, we needed mediators to God. The Levites functioned as that mediator. After Jesus died for us, the veil in the Temple was torn in two. Meaning the function of the mediators is no longer in effect. Each believer can now come to God through Jesus Christ “alone.” We don’t need animal sacrifices or mediators anymore. So there are no Levites or “mediators” to tithe to for support anymore. BUT we still donate for the poor and needy whatever our hearts desire. Jesus is clear that we should not forget the poor and needy, but He did not state how much is required to give, only that you give with a cheerful heart. Personally we have chosen not to give to churches where the money is spent on buildings and anything to support those buildings because we prefer that all or as much as possible of what we donate goes to the poor and needy, not to pay for some building or gym or pipe organ, etc. That is our preference, and we believe it is perfectly Biblical.

As far as pointing out all the things that you didn’t cover, gee, I think I covered a lot, and really don’t want to have to repeat everything primarily because this will get long again, and you’ll have to scroll up and down again, anyway. So I don’t see it being much different. Perhaps if ever you have more time and feel the interest to know what I had shared regarding this topic, then you can print out this page and read it that way. Scrolling back and forth certainly can make things difficult, but printing it out should make it clearer than spoken words because you can go over it as many times as you need. I have tried to make it as clear as I knew how. I’m sure there can always be more added, but it’ll just get longer, ha!

Well, I think we may have come to some understanding here. I hope, anyway. When I can get around to it, I wanted to share some of the things that I’ve learned on stuff like love and prayer. Particularly since I’d like to hear what others have learned about it, too. Brian encourages me to do that so that my thoughts can be scrutinized by other believers. It should help me grow. I’m a bit reluctant to mix it up in this long thread, but I don’t see a way to make a subcategory here. Hmmm. Might have to just start a new thread. This one got long enough.

It’s been a good chat, I think. Thanks, again Patti, Andrea, and BumbleBee!

Marla

Marla, I again say, you are right. There are lots of churches not functioning doctrinally correct, fiscally wise (good stewardship), etc. But I also KNOW there are churches that are doing those things. That’s why I think it’s throwing the baby out with the bath water to say churches today are run wrong. Not all of them are. We have plenty of discussion during our Sunday school classes and lots on Tuesday night bible study nights. Of the three and a half to four hours a week we’re in church, only 1hr of that is preaching. The rest is bible teaching and freely asking/answering questions. I don’t think that’s much unlike what we saw with Paul, Timothy or Titus. I totally understand the organ thing because I’m with you on that one. Our old church spent $23K on a grand piano they did not need and so many people were so angry that it was done so wrongly. The people were told, not consulted and voted on. Then they ran short on other needs. Needless to say, we knew we were leaving shortly and they have lost A LOT of families since that time. While not for that reason, I know that most folks felt like that was a very bad thing. So, yes, churches screw up. Hopefully, they’ll repent and get right. And God’s grace allows for mistakes to be made. But ya know what, all of us that left went out and found a church that was preaching and teaching the whole counsel of God. That has open and good stewardship practices, etc. I’m just saying it’s not fair or right to cast all churches in the same light of what you’ve seen. We have not compromised one bit on anything that is of absolute critical importance with the bible. Doctrines, spiritual music, teaching, preaching, etc. The things that are absolutes are absolutes. There is room for other “administrations” beyond that. But with ya on that organ thing. Oh man! A church can worship in music acapella for goodness sakes.

I think you mistook what I said about obeying those that have the rule over you. The bible clearly states we are to obey the earthly shepard God has put over us because he watches over our souls. I put the reference in a previous post. IF we weren’t supposed to be in a church where there is clearly a shepard leading the flock, why would God have stated this? I meant for that to mean a meeting (church) where there is no leadership (which is how I see “house churches” sometimes run) is not working biblically either.

The forsaking of assembling is regarding just being a part of an assembly. Wherever that assembly may be. Simply, are we a part of an assembly? Basic, straight forward question.

Tithing. Here’s how we see it: God owns everything we have. Everything. He loans it to us to be a good steward of, to care for, to borrow. He only asks for 10% of that back of ALL our firstfruits. So, we count a firstfruit everything we receive. Now, we can’t give God 10% of our garden. BUT, we can give it to people who need it or don’t have it available to them. And that’s what we do. When we sold our house, you bet, 10% of everything we made on it went back to God’s work. Offerings above and beyond that go towards missions and building funds (we meet in a daycare center) as God provides (which he always does). Tithing isn’t giving God 10% of what is ours. It’s giving him 10% of what is already his and being a good steward of what he’s left here for us. We’re are very strict with this. We have taught our children to be a good steward of their clothing, their shoes, their books, their toys, our home, etc. because those things all belong to God and we are blessed to have what we do. Many people have much less. When I have time I’ll post out the scriptures I’ve got on my fridge about this.

Okay, I don’t know if I covered all the questions you asked but I have to jet. If I missed something, tell me. This is getting long and I keep having to scroll up to see what I missed and I know I missed stuff.

patti

You make a good point. I knew that if we asked amiss we should expect not to have our prayers answered, but it appears it’s no sin to ask for something that may not be God’s will. It just felt wrong to me to ask Him for something that doesn’t seem right or proper. Like I’m asking God to do something against His will. Doesn’t feel right to me or fair. What I have done in the past is to pray to know what I should be praying for, ha ha! What I usually come up with is for the person to come closer to God. How that would happen is up to God.

Thanks for your insight. It does lessen the uneasiness to know that there’s no harm if I do pray for the wrong thing. I just won’t get it. . .

I pray that your bil gets the peace and comfort that he needs.

Marla

As to your ideas about prayer, Marla–my favorite solution to this dilemma is to go ahead and ask for whatever, but always with the underlying idea, even if not voiced, of “Thy will be done.” Often we pray for things that aren’t God’s will. Jesus did, when he asked that “this cup” be taken away from him. It’s OK. God understands, but He also will answer as He thinks best, not as we want.

Andrea

I’ve been thinking about this thread, why it got started, the discussions that have transpired, and the current outcome. My thoughts this morning is that I feel that I have “somewhat” sufficiently explained my understanding of church and its purpose. I never got into other aspects that I think are pertinent, such as idolatry and covetousness in our churches today, but I do feel that a lot of what has been on my heart I have shared. Whether anyone agrees with me or not is still out there, but that’s okay because my intent was to share. In the process I find that I not only opened up my heart to you, but you also have opened up your heart to me. In that respect, I feel that perhaps we have a little more understanding of each other. I see that as a good thing! This discussion has been very revealing as to what our beliefs are. As Christians, I think that is desirable in that we now know where we each stand regarding doctrine even if we don’t all agree.

BumbleBee, you struck a note with me. I know I tend to be timid, but overall, I think I am secure in my understanding of the basics of the Bible. From your post, I wonder if perhaps part of my timidity stems from the fact that I am not confident in the ways I explain myself. For instance, look how long and how many posts it took me to explain myself in the above thread. I think in the back of my mind, I feel that many people won’t want to spend that much time discussing these things, not to mention that I’m almost guaranteed that there will be opposition. And so I am reluctant to even broach the subject. But that doesn’t stop the niggling feeling I have in my heart when for instance someone asks me to pray for something. I believe in prayer, but I don’t always agree with praying for what I have been asked to pray for. It puts me in an awkward position. But now you have broached another soft spot for me, and that is I should know what I believe clearly enough to present an answer clearly when asked and that I should not be adversed to opposition AND I should not be lazy to take the time to organize my thoughts. I admit that part of the reason I stay quite is that it’s time consuming! My goal is to share what I can even if it is not going to be accepted so long as I do it in honesty and for good intentions. I think you summed it up beautifully that our sharing the gospel can be done simply, while I on the other hand took the long round about way of doing it. I see that is something I need to work on. Thank you.

For now, let’s see where the spirit moves. . .

Marla

The Apostles were given by Jesus Christ a command to preach the Gospel to every creature. These were all men who came in contact with Jesus, almost all of whom lived closely with Him for years. They had special gifts along with their special mandate. Yet this great commission, as it is called, is not repeated as specifically commanded to any but apostles. Further admonitions outside of the four Gospel books which were written to the various churches conspicuously absent of a great commission.

Instead, there is a lower-keyed approach to those outside the churches than “preaching to every creature.” Peter for example, says to be ready to give an answer to one who asks about the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear (1 Peter 3:15). Notice that Peter did not say to bring them to church to hear someone who can speak better than you can with persuasive words.

Even Paul came to the Corinthians with meekness and fear not with persuasive words so that the Gospel would not be made ineffectual. “And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom” (1 Corinthians 2:3-4). It is not desirable to have to wait for someone to present the Gospel who has greater skill. If a person cannot explain the Gospel in simple terms in his own words, then the more Biblical solution would be to get that deficient Christian to better come to terms with what he or she actually believes rather than to toss a non-believer to a professionally paid orator.

We need to also understand that mere cleverness of words are not the strongest tool to relay the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had miracles in abundance, yet very many were left in unbelief. The 11 Apostles were eyewitnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus, and they also preformed many signs and wonders, yet the world largely remained unbelieving. Jesus taught the multitudes, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven ” (Matthew 5:16). Peter taught, “Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives” (1 Peter 3:1).

Way too much weight is place upon the effectiveness of a good speaker for bringing people to believe in Jesus Christ, since every one who believes in Jesus should be showing the world His truth by his or her good deeds. As we have heard, “Actions speak louder than words.” What is it that Christians are so afraid of to live a lot of good deeds and when asked answer what is the reason for our hope in Christ? Are Christians not living a life of good deeds? If so don’t take non-believers to your church to hear a message that you are not living. If you are living the Gospel, then YOU are the most effective person to answer the questions, not some stranger on a stage. YOU are the most effective person to answer the questions about the hope that is in YOUR heart, not some preacher whose life they are not seeing, or a preacher who might even be cheating secretly on his wife for all they know.

A poor retarded youth who lives every day doing good and kind things for others as he is inspired by the life of Jesus is a much or better a testimony in all his limited vocabulary than a seminary educated professional who hides himself inside a quiet air conditioned plush office preparing Sunday sermons.

The real Christian abundant life exists outside of the religious Alice and Wonderland stained glass, wood pew, million dollar organs, Bose stereo systems and tie-clad professionalism. The real Christian abundant life is out on the streets, in the work places, on the school grounds and parks, in homes, in the marketplaces, in the real world places, daily not just Sundays in, just as Jesus feasted with prostitutes with VD, tax gatherers and sinners, while the self-righteous religious leaders complained. These are places where the people of the world see us and evaluate us in the context of life, not in some gilded sanctuary.

Yet when those who believe in Christ come together we are called out of the world into the contexts of our homes to share food with one another as a meal as Jesus did with his disciples. We are not religiously chained to a dead church building mortgage, high priced experts, tithes or other religious burdens. This is not a business but an extended family. It is not a place of religious contrivances but of genuine family familiarity. Kids spread toys across the floor. We eat, mess things up, fill our tummies and the men share as the spirit moves without pre-contrived scheduling. People come and go at their leisure, There are no guilt trips to keep NAZI-like perceptions of perfection. We encourage one another to love and good deeds for now and to prepare us for when we are out in the world so that our effectiveness amongst unbelievers is greatly enhanced “that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Any dummy can live the power of the Gospel. It takes a true religious professional to mess it up.

I do feel that music does feed the hungry, spiritually speaking. Mother Teresa taught that, if someone is physically hungry, you give them bread–but spiritual hunger is just as destructive, and, yes, can be fed with music, and other things too.

It is certainly true that conveying the truth about Jesus can be done just as well, maybe better, outside the church as in. It sounds as though Brian has a gift for that. Not everyone does. For those who do not have such a gift, in my experience the structure of a church can provide a tool for encouragement. I have seen some remarkable things happen in that building.

An organ, too, can be a tool for encouragement.

As to the donations, my idea of the donations is that they are given to help the “business” end of the church–the keeping of the doors open, the maintenance of the Tool-for-Encouragement–not only for the physically hungry, but to keep the doors open for the spiritually starved. But a church needs to be careful, of course, that it doesn’t ONLY serve itself, and that it does send at least 10% away.

At least, that’s how I see it.

A Bible study on love! There’s a beautiful idea!

Andrea

I just wanted to clarify that I have nothing against music. God does want us to be happy (each has a psalm), but I’m discussing it in context of expenditures. Instruments can be relatively cheap in comparison to buying a whole building that will need continual maintenance. So music and instruments was never my first qualm with church gatherings. Although a $1million organ is just not necessary, I don’t care how good you are. If a person were a skilled instrument maker and donated his time to make it, that’s another thing. But to “pay” donation money for it? That’s just not being a good steward as far as I see.

Take care, and happy singing!

Marla