First of all, CONGRATULATIONS! Oh my, how far along do you think you are? How exciting! I hope your IC calms down with this pregnancy. How did the IC fare when you were pregnant with your other kids? I saw a post on the candida list recently where this gal claimed that she also suffered from IC. With my previous experience with UTIs and the discomforts that brings to the urinary tract/bladder, what you go through every day sounds miserable to live with. . . sigh.

Regarding the post of the family who had the flu for almost 4 months, yes, it was on that thread, and I read her post. I still think there is a leap with associating immune boosting herbs to promoting a deadly cytokine storm because while I can appreciate that some of the herbs she was taking didn’t seem to knock her flu out, it also didn’t cause anything so serious as to require any of her family to be hospitalized. Remember, the deadly cases usually are reported to have developed very quickly, like overnight or in a matter of hours to the point of hospitalization and even death. Her reported symptoms were temporary improvements, then the symptoms juggled around. Sounds more annoying than deadly. AND she did say that “if” the herbs don’t work, try not using them. She goes on to state which herbs she did use which were effective. So really I think the more accurate assessment is what another gal posted much further on in the thread probably around page 8 or 9 where she stated that it all depends upon how the herbs are applied. And I totally agree with that. The Chinese philosophy with herbs is that herbs are chosen for “specific” symptoms and body types. Disease conditions can develop as a result of either yin (deficiency) or yang (excess). And depending upon which condition you have, an herb is either helpful or not helpful, but not usually deadly unless really radically misused. So I do think she did the right thing by trying different herbs, but notice she didn’t give up on the herbs, just aimed at more specific herbs that correlated with their specific symptoms. My feeling is that rather than the herbs she first used hindering her progress, I think those particular herbs were just not effective in knocking out what they had. You may notice later on in many posts afterward others using all sorts of other herb concoctions with reported good results. Some combinations even had echineaca as part of the mix and other immune boosting substances like colostrum.

Just for a little more example regarding tailoring treatments to a particular personal condition, there were some suggestions on the forum to soak in hot tubs. I think that’s a nice idea “if” you are relatively healthy with no heart condition. A person with heart conditions can’t endure hot tubs soaks for very long, and it can be dangerous for them. Also dosages of herbs are important since it is commonly accepted that a little stimulation can help an organ or condition, but “over” stimulation may give the opposite effect. In particular it’s said that a little bitter (I think it’s bitter or maybe sour) foods help to stimulate the liver, but too much bitter foods make the liver sluggish. I’ve also read this kind of effect with certain conventional drugs, that too much can actually give the opposite effect in certain conditions. Likewise, the same type of concepts can be applied to using herbs. Even vit C, D, and zinc are considered immune boosting, but too much can cause problems and too little can be ineffective.

Other things to consider are the “other” lifestyle and health practices people have. I was listening to Mercola’s interview with Dr. Blaylock the other day, and Blaylock spoke of how people are claiming that “healthy” individuals are getting the flu, yet no one is questioning whether those people were smokers, exposed to smokers, drinkers, ate lots of sugar, had overall lousy diets, etc. People who are exposed to smokers, eat poorly, etc. are immuned compromised already, according to Blaylock. He even said that people who are overweight, especially those who are obese have a higher risk of contracting the flu because just the fact that they are overweight shows that they already have underlying health conditions which compromise their immune systems.

So, while I agree that 4 months to get rid of a flu is a long time, I don’t know what other conditions that family had/has or are exposed to. Did the herbs really hinder their healing? If so, then why did the symptoms move around? Why didn’t it just get worse and worse? Seems to me that there is more to the picture than just immune boosting herbs. And like I posted in my previous post, herbs are generally more complicated than just one action like boosting the immune systems. Vit C is thought to boost the immune system, but whole foods (like herbs) that contain vit C have a lot more in them that help strengthen the body in other ways.

Welp better get on with the day! Oh, I meant to comment on your post from Spin Off from Chronicles of Steele, but I haven’t gotten a chance to yet. Thanks for the update, but will have to go back and re-read it later.

Marla

Not sure if it was that thread or another where forever girl talks about her family have a horrible flu last year that lasted for 4 months. It would seem like it was getting better and then whip up again through everyone. It was that post where she talked about studying and finding out about the cytokine storm. She had been using all of the immune boosting herbs she could to no avail (they used to own bulk herb store so she’s was up on that stuff). Anyways, after her research she pulled back on the herbs that were immune boosting vs. actual things like mucous removers, virus killers, etc. Finally, after several weeks of those they were able to kick it. It took them 4 months total so it was about 3 1/2 months before she worked that into their knowledge base. Anyways, I find that all very interesting.

Regarding immune modulating in pregnancy – well I believe it is working. It appears we may be expecting #4. About as sure as I can be minus a test right now. As such, one of the things I’m experiencing is my bladder is much more calm. However, I am concerned about even taking one ultram a day right now. Last night was the first night in several years I actually went all night on only 1 ultram. It was hard towards morning, but I did it. *If* I am in fact expecting I want to use this time of immune system suppression to do everything I can to heal. I just don’t know where to start right now. But for now, pregnancy does appear to modulate the immune system if my experience says anything.

patti

As you must know by now, I am opinionated. So I’m gonna throw in some of my layman’s thoughts here regarding avoiding herbs in relation to a cytokine storm. I “think” I understand why the recommendation to avoid immune boosting herbs. But there are several problems with that line of reasoning.

1). The references to healthy individuals dying from the flu did not indicate whether any of those healthy individuals were taking any herbs. In that case, we have no idea how any herbs would affect those healthy individuals during a flu bout. Also many herbs are considered immune modulators anyway, so it’s not like they just boost immunity, but have many other functions. Yooper on the list quoted a source that said, “”Herbs in fact act as inflammation and immune modulators rather than as stimulants or suppressors (Yarnell, Abascal, Alt Comp Ther 2006).”

2) Just because younger people are more susceptible to the flu doesn’t mean it’s only the healthy ones who get it. Mercola’s recent article regarding the common links to the flu stated that to date 36 children have died from the flu, but only 6 were considered “without” other health related illnesses. That seems to indicate that the other 30 who died did have other health conditions.

3) On the flip side, to say that “older” people aren’t susceptible to the flu, therefore only the young, healthy ones are at high risk is assuming that “all” older people are unhealthy and that young people are strong and well. I think that’s taking a leap. The more likely reason that the older ones aren’t as susceptible is because they already have an immunity from previous exposure, not that they have weak immune systems. That is irrelevant to a strong vs weak immune system.

4) Also one of the links provided was to http://www.drkaslow.com/html/immune_restoration.html In that link the doc explains how there are many conditions which involve immune response in the disease process (hepatitis, arthritis, psoriasis, cancers, etc) . So does that mean that in all those disease conditions patients should not take herbs and/or try to boost their immune systems? Or just in the case of swine flu? If so, why? We know that many herbs help in many other disease conditions that involve immune reactions.

5) I appreciated the analogy to the washing machine. Her analogy makes sense “if” it were an accurate representation of the human body. But I don’t think it is. I can understand the water hose part being the influx of the immune cells, but the “other” hole getting “larger?” Eh, who says there was another hole to start with? Isn’t a large part of the flu “congestion?” I think the latter posts suggesting hot baths to loosen congestion were actually more on the mark and, in my opinion, I think a lot of the problem is stagnation. When the immune systems starts to fight off all the bad guys and there’s a lot of dead cells accumulating as a result, there needs to be a way to help clear those dead cells so they don’t get impacted in there. That’s part of what mucus does–carry away dead cells. One suggestion I didn’t see on all the 10 pages was to pound the back to help break up congestion in the lungs. I know that has helped me in the past.

6) I don’t think getting the flu is the ultimate mark of a unhealthy immune system, but also telling is how the body deals with it once it is contracted. It’s not like only healthy people who get the flu die. And many healthy people who get the flu recover, too, so obviously being too healthy shouldn’t work against a person. We also have to remember that what is considered healthy is subjective. Some health weaknesses are not always readily spotted.

Okay, I need to do some things around here, so will quit for now. But again, thanks for the link. I liked reading all their experiences and suggestions. Helps to confirm some of our own practices, and also add new info for additional armament, heheh.

Take care,

Marla

Regarding pregnancy and the immune system, yes, in some ways it does “both,” suppress and go into hyperdrive. Now that you mention it, I remember when I was pregnant with my youngest son, I noticed that my white count was like 11 or 12 (normal being between 4 and 10), and I mentioned to my midwife that it was high. She said, “Yes, it’s on the high side, but not for a pregnant woman.” Apparently, the white cells go on overdrive when pregnant likely for the reason you stated that there is foreign material in there! Because God intended pregnancy, tho, likely there is a mechanism by which the body understands pregnancy and allows the baby to grow. There are some cases, tho, that the baby does get rejected such as with incompatible Rh factors. And also when I got diagnosed with AA, they didn’t want to use Brian as a possible marrow or blood donor because they said that since we’ve had children together, I’ve likely built up a resistance or antibodies to his cells. Hmmm. In that light it might be another reason why promiscuous women end up with more female problems? Too many partners taxes the immune system? LOL So back to the pregnancy, that was another discussion on the AA forum–pregnancy can cause AA. . . Well, turns out there are a lot of other conditions that are “seemingly” triggered by pregnancy. I know of a lady who developed lupus after her pregnancy, and another lady who developed sarcoidosis, I think it was. Whatever the reason, I do believe that pregnancy really takes a lot out of a woman, and that’s why good nutrition is so important for both men and women before having kids. Oh, and there’s also that saying, “A tooth for every child.” Supposedly, women would lose “teeth” after child baring. Makes sense that women have to beef up their nutritional intake during pregnancy because they are now supporting two people. When I was in high school, my boyfriend’s mom had arthritis really, really bad. Some advice she got was to get pregnant again to “fix” her arthritis. I guess at the time they thought her pregnancy triggered her arthritis in the first place. She was only in her 40s when I met her, but her arthritis was really really bad already.

Anyway, I think dinner is just about ready, so I better quit for now. Oh, speaking about autoimmunity, yes, I agree with you that it’s such a challenge! I’m still battling my skin issues as well. Interestingly, tho the problem parts “move” around. More on that later, tho, as I had also wondered myself about detox and why after all these years I’m still having issues. Could it be possible to be detoxing so long? LOL But, I think there’s likely other things involved and also I’m leaning toward the idea that yes, some toxins actually get “stuck,” and are difficult to remove. In the meantime they continue to tax the body and cause trouble. More on that later, too.

Okay, better get food on before the boys rebel, heheh.

Marla

I believe it’s in that link. It’s ten pages of discussion. Some of it covering research people had read, some of it research they had done on their own, etc. etc. Reading it and how they dealt with this four month flu they had was interesting.

Since I have an autoimmune disease and know my body pretty well (in terms of how often I get sick, etc) I think it’s more accurate to say the immune system is confused. Because other then my bladder, I rarely get sick. Maybe a cold once a year but I never get it as bad as everyone else. Haven’t had the flu in years and that’s even when everyone else got it. So I think my immune system is confused more then anything. Sadly, I believe if I had known about my allergies (again, a confused immune system) I wouldn’t be dealing with an AI today. I think it was largely caused by our birth control method and then the food allergies and pregnancies brought it out full force.

So there’s another thought. The immune system actually suppresses when one is pregnant so the body doesn’t reject the baby. But it was during my first pregnancy that I had my first dairy allergy symptoms. So it wouldn’t make sense that trying to keep the immune system down would help an AI (or other diseases) because that’s exactly what pregnancy does but it’s when mine got worse. So, go figure……..

So, how to change a confused immune system?????

Do you have a link to the discussions on the cytokine storm? I would like to read what they say about that. Not that it’s relevant or anything to the swine flu, but just reminds me of a discussion we had years ago on the AA/MDS Listserv on the issue of whether or not to boost the immune system because AA is considered an autoimmune disease in many cases. There were those of us who wanted to strengthen our immune systems (supplement with things like vit C), while others advised against it-i.e. no vit C etc. My contention at the time was that it is erroneous to equate strengthening the immune system with “malfunction/overactive immune system.” We were commonly told that our immune systems were “too strong” and thus attacking our own cells (autoimmunity). I believed that was erroneous because theoretically a strong immune system is a system which “can rightly” differentiate good cells from bad cells. For instance a strong immune system fights off cancers because it can identify good cells vs bad ones. A strong immune system can destroy/obliterate foreign tissue (as in transplants), even healthy foreign tissue because it can differentiate self from non-self. The purpose of destroying foreign and defective cells is to protect the healthy cells. I don’t think it’s possible to have too strong of an immune system, but rather a system that can not differentiate good cells from bad cells. On the other hand an overactive immune system, or a system that attacks anything including good cells is “not” necessarily a strong immune system, but a “malfunctioning” one because it is not properly discerning healthy cells from bad cells. Thus what I was trying to say was that we are not merely trying to strengthen our immune systems but rather giving it the proper building blocks/fuel/nourishment it needs to develop properly and “function” properly as well. An immune system that overacts in the wrong circumstances (such as attacking self or not destroying foreign substances and viruses etc.) is not a strong one, but a confused one which is getting wrong messages. or no messages or incomplete messages, etc. So in my mind I wondered if supporting the immune system was actually promoting more malfunction or was it promoting better information recognition? Or another way to put it was, “Was vit C actually promoting more autoimmune malfunction, or was it just supporting a more healthy immune system, which should “calm” or reduce the autoimmune malfunction?” Bottom line is that I think the issue would have been better phrased “properly functioning immune system” vs. “malfunctioning immune system.” Not “strong” vs “weak” because I didn’t think those two were opposites in terms of the immune system. A malfunctioning immune system is not strong, although it may be rouge. And similarly a weak immune system which can not differentiate good and bad cells might allow many bad cells to proliferate because it can’t tell the difference. In that case there is no immune reaction when there should be. An example of this is using immunosuppressive agent to “calm” or I think more properly “dull” the instincts or messages/information to the immune system. A weak/dulled immune system will allow foreign material in the body to thrive. Anyway, I would be curious to read more about this cytokine storm and who wrote these articles and who did the studies. I think the human body was so amazingly designed. There’s still so much we don’t know about it.

Yes, vit D right now seems to be all the rage. I’ve been trying to get my daily sun, but soon we will be in chilly weather, wah. I have to admit that I’ve been getting lax with health practices here. I really need to get out and exercise more and get more fresh air and sunshine.

Thanks for the info regarding the juices. She has already been juicing before she started treatment, but even that has pretty much come to a stop (no energy to juice! I suggested making broths on her up days and freezing it so on her bad days should could just pull it out of the freezer. Turns out on her bad days she couldn’t even pull it out of the freezer and warm it up. So I suggested freezing it in cubes, so that on her down moments she could just get out bite-sized broth cubes to suck on. We’re talking bare minimal work here. . . She was trying that with grapes, but she doesn’t like grapes anymore, either), but I do like the suggestion to add in some healing herbs. Will have to look more into what herbs would be good to add when she can juice. She says her mouth taste like chlorox or something like that. And basically before her next cycle comes up her tastebuds do get better, but hasn’t come back to 100% yet. It doesn’t help that she’s diabetic, either. Cuts out the more sweet and yummy stuffs. Even when she juiced before treatment she avoided too many sweet produce like carrots and apples. . . sigh. She was doing the greens like romaine, cucumbers, celery, etc. I wish I didn’t live 30 miles away from her.

Thanks again!

Marla

I have been following the swine flu issue and saw the CBS article and cheerleader. There’s been much talk on welltellme about it also. There have been a few confirmed cases on WTM and they followed what others had told them. Don’t boost the immune system once you have it and get LOTS of vit. D. The Vit. D appears to be the key in all the ones that had it. There’s a really good explantion and discussion of the cytokine storm that occurs when someone tries to boost their immune system with H1N1. Thus the admonition to stop all immune boosting herbs, etc. and go to natural antibiotics/antifungals. GSE and garlic being two high on the list.

The only thing I can think of for your friend would be fresh juices that have some healing herbs in them. If she can’t do citrus what about carrot and apple with some barley green or something? Something that packs nutrition as well as taste….. not sure what else.

patti

So what do those people you know of who are taking the MMS have to say about it? Do you know what they are using it for? I agree with Andrea that I wish they didn’t call it “miracle” mineral solution. Why not just call it mineral blend or something like that, ha!

Speaking of not trusting the medical community, have you been following along with the swine flu stuff? CBS was saying that many of the flu cases haven’t even been confirmed to be H1N1, and Mercola had an interesting video interview with Barbara Fisher of the NVIC. The other day I saw that video of that Red Skins Cheerleader who got dystonia from a flu shot. It’s such a tragic story! If you haven’t seen the video here’s one of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh5F5wP8RdU

Andrea, does you mom have to take any meds at all? Does she have high blood pressure or diabetes or anything like that? Arthritis? I have an uncle who is 86, and just recently started taking diabetes pills. Otherwise he’s in pretty good shape still.

Speaking of trying to eat things that taste bad, my friend who is going through chemo is having a hard time eating partly because of the nausea and partly because things just don’t taste good anymore. Not even water tastes good, she says. Any suggestions? She’s not supposed to eat any citrus or anything spicy or diary. She’s getting sick of all sorts of meats, too. She’s gone through the chicken, beef, pork, fish, eggs, and now even shrimp isn’t appealing anymore, either. I suggested she make pancakes and blend the eggs in the batter so that she can’t taste the egg, but still get the protein from the eggs, but she doesn’t like bread anymore either. Food tastes so bad that it generally takes her about 2 hours to finish a small meal. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Marla

Oh, I totally understand Linda’s struggle to get away from medical stuff. It is HARD to face that what you always believed to be the “right” thing might not be right after all. I know God really used my MIL’s illness to move me over the edge. Perhaps God will use her Lyme’s to change her thinking. And I’m probably more “radical” today then I was 2 yrs ago. Radical in the sense that I’m getting harsher feeling towards AMA medicine.

Andrea, it’s impressive that your mom is 92! My mom will be 70 in December but she thinks if she’s not getting a new medication each year she ages then her doctors aren’t taking care of her. It’s nice your mom would follow what you tell her! My mom wouldn’t do that for sure!

Glad to hear Rob is climbing ladders and working hard!! What a blessing.

patti

Okay, so this AM I see that there is still some discussion on the candida group on this MMS. One healthcare advisor is saying it’s great while another healthcare advisor is saying he wouldn’t touch it. Instead he recommends ozone therapy. . . I say “healthcare advisors” because one claims to be a naturopath (he’s the one for the MMS) and the other guy, well, I’m not sure what he is, but he claims he also has clients. . . Anyway, a lesson reminder, always do your own research! There’s always two or more sides to a story, heheh.

That’s great news that your mom responds so well to adjusting her diet and keeping her rashes in check! I wish my case was a simple, but I can definitely see that there is a diet link to some of my skin woes. Strange thing for me is that with my change in diet the affected areas have changed. The areas where I’ve had life-long rashes are clear, but I still break out off and on in other places like my hands and face. I’m thinking I’m still a bit toxic and likely still imbalanced in various ways like hormone and/or mineral, etc. But still I’m much better than I used to be, so I’m good with it. And I can say that I haven’t used any conventional meds now for about 8 years. That’s a major improvement for me.

I have to say that I’m so impressed that your mom is 92! Now that is encouraging! At 78 my dad says that he’s living on borrowed time. While it makes me sad to hear him say that, I do realize that there are many others younger than him who have passed away, including family members. So I can see what he means. But to know that there are others like your mom at 92 living well! I am encouraged and love to pass that info on to my parents. It always gives them a smile and another occasion to joke about how “healthy” they are, heheheh. Thanks for the encouragement!

Regarding the Philippines, yes, some of our relatives got flooded out and lost a lot of stuff including two cars that got “sunk.” One of my aunts has a condo in the Marikina area and the lobby was flooded “neck” deep. Luckily her unit is high like the 6th floor, but still all the landscaping is wrecked and the pool is full of mud. My relatives in Manila also got flooded, but not as bad, and my relatives in Cubao didn’t get affected at all as that area is higher and generally doesn’t flood. If it flooded there, that means the rest of the city is in BAD shape! Ha! I took my sister to the airport on Thursday. She should be in the Philippines now. I asked if she can take some pics for me to share, and she said she “forgot” her camera, but will ask my cousin if she can borrow his for a while. We’ll see what she can get. But the best news is that all the relatives are fine. No one got hurt including the animals.

Okay! Take care!

Marla